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	<title>Comments on: Why model IT (or how we learn to love speculation)</title>
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	<link>http://www.neurdon.com/2009/07/16/why-model-it-or-how-we-learn-to-love-speculation/</link>
	<description>We put the sci in sci-fi</description>
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		<title>By: Jeff Markowitz</title>
		<link>http://www.neurdon.com/2009/07/16/why-model-it-or-how-we-learn-to-love-speculation/comment-page-1/#comment-2242</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Markowitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 03:22:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As far as I know, their laminar structure is roughly similar insofar as which layers receive input, primarily 4, and which project to subsequent areas in whatever hierarchy you have in mind (vision, memory, executive function, whatever).   This is far more general than you&#039;re expecting I&#039;m sure, but the precise cytoarchitecture hasn&#039;t been as thoroughly characterized as that of V1; that is, I&#039;m not aware of too much slice work from IT.  I would look at Kathleen Rockland&#039;s lab, which has done some of the most detailed work around the upper reaches of the ventral stream (V4 through anterior IT).  Either way, I think this sort of data has not resulted in the sort of comprehensive picture one would need to explain human object recognition, let alone something we could use in a technological application.

The question, at this point, is not how do IT cells respond to visual stimuli, or what the biophysical properties of IT cells are (though this would be wonderful, insanely useful data to have).  We have a truckload of electrophysiological data, even if some of it falls prey to the sort of difficulties pointed out in an article from Pinto et al. in PLoS.  I think the general problem is that we&#039;re looking at a filter&#039;s response, assuming IT does some form of filtering at a reasonable level of approximation, without a clue about what its input looks like.  It makes trying to derive a transfer function, perhaps one you could use in an object recognition system, impossible.  

Before incorporating precise biological data into the functional picture of IT, we need a good, basic, characterization at the electrophysiological level, something akin to Hubel and Wiesel&#039;s seminal work in LGN and V1.  The power of their cartoon model is that it gives a picture of how input from the retina is transformed into useful information at V1 via LGN.  We have no such cartoon for V2, V4, ITp and ITa.  This is not due to a lack of recordings from IT, but rather, a lack of data from multiple areas that we can tie into a unified picture.  Perhaps simultaneous recordings of a V4 cell that synapses onto an ITp cell attacks this problem most directly, similar to Alonso and Reid&#039;s critical work in LGN and V1.  I recall someone in DiCarlo&#039;s lab working on something like this, or at least he mentioned it at his last talk.  We&#039;ll see what fruit it bears.  

Anyway, after establishing such a general framework, then maybe it makes sense to unpack laminar dynamics, followed by fine-grained in vitro work, etc. etc.  So, in short, the answer is:  not much, but maybe other coarser-grained data will give us a rough picture in the near future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as I know, their laminar structure is roughly similar insofar as which layers receive input, primarily 4, and which project to subsequent areas in whatever hierarchy you have in mind (vision, memory, executive function, whatever).   This is far more general than you&#8217;re expecting I&#8217;m sure, but the precise cytoarchitecture hasn&#8217;t been as thoroughly characterized as that of V1; that is, I&#8217;m not aware of too much slice work from IT.  I would look at Kathleen Rockland&#8217;s lab, which has done some of the most detailed work around the upper reaches of the ventral stream (V4 through anterior IT).  Either way, I think this sort of data has not resulted in the sort of comprehensive picture one would need to explain human object recognition, let alone something we could use in a technological application.</p>
<p>The question, at this point, is not how do IT cells respond to visual stimuli, or what the biophysical properties of IT cells are (though this would be wonderful, insanely useful data to have).  We have a truckload of electrophysiological data, even if some of it falls prey to the sort of difficulties pointed out in an article from Pinto et al. in PLoS.  I think the general problem is that we&#8217;re looking at a filter&#8217;s response, assuming IT does some form of filtering at a reasonable level of approximation, without a clue about what its input looks like.  It makes trying to derive a transfer function, perhaps one you could use in an object recognition system, impossible.  </p>
<p>Before incorporating precise biological data into the functional picture of IT, we need a good, basic, characterization at the electrophysiological level, something akin to Hubel and Wiesel&#8217;s seminal work in LGN and V1.  The power of their cartoon model is that it gives a picture of how input from the retina is transformed into useful information at V1 via LGN.  We have no such cartoon for V2, V4, ITp and ITa.  This is not due to a lack of recordings from IT, but rather, a lack of data from multiple areas that we can tie into a unified picture.  Perhaps simultaneous recordings of a V4 cell that synapses onto an ITp cell attacks this problem most directly, similar to Alonso and Reid&#8217;s critical work in LGN and V1.  I recall someone in DiCarlo&#8217;s lab working on something like this, or at least he mentioned it at his last talk.  We&#8217;ll see what fruit it bears.  </p>
<p>Anyway, after establishing such a general framework, then maybe it makes sense to unpack laminar dynamics, followed by fine-grained in vitro work, etc. etc.  So, in short, the answer is:  not much, but maybe other coarser-grained data will give us a rough picture in the near future.</p>
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		<title>By: Massimiliano Versace</title>
		<link>http://www.neurdon.com/2009/07/16/why-model-it-or-how-we-learn-to-love-speculation/comment-page-1/#comment-2239</link>
		<dc:creator>Massimiliano Versace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 02:38:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I guess a question is the following: what is it known of the laminar structural differences between V1 and IT? This might shed some light on what they might be do differently, regardless of their input (in both cases, trains of incoming spikes, after all....).

Max</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess a question is the following: what is it known of the laminar structural differences between V1 and IT? This might shed some light on what they might be do differently, regardless of their input (in both cases, trains of incoming spikes, after all&#8230;.).</p>
<p>Max</p>
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